The magic of creating with Casey Bernard

Hello and welcome back to series two of the Why I

Knit podcast. My name is Dr Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical

psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits

for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different

knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental

health. This week on the podcast, I'm joined by Casey

Bernard who co-presents the VeryPink Knits podcast along

with Staci Perry.

Hi Casey. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you! Thanks for having me.

I always start the podcast with asking where your

relationship with knitting began. Where did yours start?

Well, I've been thinking about this since you

sent me the questions. I was in graduate school in my mid 20s

and then I finished and suddenly I was like, "I have all this

free time!" I've always dabbled in some kind of crafty thing,

and I started cross stitching and... I don't know what else I

was doing. And then I started with crocheting because I knew

the basic crochet chain from when I was a little kid. And

then I was looking at patterns and looking at things, and I was

like, "I really don't..." I had like knitting envy, I often say,

because I like the finished product of knitting versus

crochet. And so it came after graduate school. It came to be a

thing that I could do, and something that I could pick up

and put down. I have a tendency to fall asleep if I'm watching

TV, so...

I do that if I'm not knitting.

Yeah, exactly! [Laughs] Because my husband

would get so mad, he would say, "You've watched the beginnings

of so many great movies." [Laughs] And so knitting kept me

awake on the couch. And then it just got to be a thing where now

it's just part of my life.

Yeah. And did you teach yourself?

Yes, this was pre-YouTube so...

Yeah, same! I always say that: "Pre-YouTube" [laughs]

from a... Well, my mum taught me, but when you had problems it

was harder! You can't just look stuff up [laughs].

Yeah. And it took a while for me to figure out

which schematic in a book worked better for me. I found there

were some that showed hands and some that didn't show hands, and

when I saw the hands it helped. And then my mom had knit in the

past. But now I've gotten her into it again, and she's like

more obsessed with it than I am. So she was there to help me, but

it took her a while to kind of get going with it too. But yeah,

I just pretty much taught myself through books. And then it was

kind of around the time of Stitch 'N Bitch; that book came

classes at the local yarn shop, and that's where I met Staci

Perry.

Okay, and you guys obviously host the VeryPink

podcast together. Okay, so you met her through knitting?

She didn't teach you. Okay. What kind of things were

Mm-hmm.

you knitting at the beginning?

I think I was knitting scarves. So the reason

I switched and I like knitting more than crochet is you can

keep track of the stitches. I crocheted a scarf that was just

like wonky, because I kept losing track of the number of

stitches. [Laughs] So once I found knitting, I was like, "Oh,

it's all there on the needle. I can keep track a little better."

I think I was knitting like... you know, my friends were

starting to have babies so I was making baby things. I never

really enjoyed making scarves that much. I have a few that

I've made, but they just take too long. I find them tedious.

And then I soon started doing weird stuff like a bikini. [Laughs]

How did that go?

It turned out really small, and I gave it to

my sister-in-law who's really skinny.

Is it usable in water?

Well, it's kind of like, you know, the 70s

crocheted kind of thing.

I always just felt like it would just stretch the

minute it got wet and that would not work well for me. [Laughs]

Some yarn has elastic in it, so it kind of

holds its shape. It's cotton with elastic.

Okay. Yeah, I guess it's not like alpaca then it's

just going to hit the floor, isn't it, as soon as you get out

the water! [Laughs]

Yeah, I don't think you're really supposed to

swim in it.

No, it's more for like hanging out. Okay. And why

do you still knit? I guess one of the reasons I contacted you

is because I'm really interested from listening to your podcast,

the conversations that you and Stacy have about process versus

project knitter. And I think you're both quite different ends

of the spectrum, maybe, in that. And I've always wondered...

Stacy seems to think that she loves knitting and is a process

knitter and it's almost like all knitting is equal. Whereas you

seem to be more of a somebody who gets bored. [Laughs] Like

you said, you don't like knitting scarves. Why do you

still knit? What is it about knitting for you?

I mean, I love the finished project, obviously.

And I think we've talked about this before, that I feel like my

knitting time is a little bit more limited, because I don't

have as much free time as she... not free time, but she has her

own day. She's single, doesn't have kids, she's got the dogs

and the business to run. But, you know, I have kids, I have a

job, I have to cook for everybody, and so I feel like my

time is limited. So I want to accomplish something, which may

make me more project-oriented. I'm also just a project-oriented

person, I think. In my job I worked on projects. I was just

talking about this with my son last night. I could never have a

job where I think about one thing for like 30 years, and I'm

focused on that one topic. I need some variety. I mean,

knitting is relaxing to me. I'm working on a hat right now that

has taken me so long, because I just haven't had the energy.

Then I'll sit down at the end of the day and I'll start knitting

it, and I fall asleep! Or I'm watching TV and I'm falling

asleep because I've just been really busy. But sometimes when

I'm in the morning getting dressed, my husband will find me

standing at the bed, just knitting a row real quick,

because it just kind of like centres me. I just enjoy the

rhythm of having that project going.

Would you knit every day?

I would if I had more time. But yeah, I do at

least a little tiny bit, usually. Even if it's one row.

You said you feel like it kind of centres you

or... I don't know if you said it makes you feel calmer. Do you

feel like it gives you other things in terms of benefiting

your mental wellbeing?

Yeah. I'm not a good meditator, and it just kind

of shuts everything out, I guess, and I can just kind of

focus on this thing. And I just love having the the tactile

input too, with my hands. And yeah, I like having a finished

project, even if I don't keep it. I think about who I'm going

to give it to and it just allows my mind to kind of like work

through things I'm working on, while I'm working on my

knitting.

Do you feel like the finished product benefits you?

The experience of giving it to someone, or when you wear it, if

someone says, "Oh, did you make your sweater?" or...

Oh, for sure! I feel really excited. I made a

Christmas sweater that has a Christmas tree on it, and I'm

like,"Oh, I need to wear my Christmas sweater!" It's the

week I get to wear this. And now, living in Maine, I

definitely get benefits from having all the hats and scarves

that I have made, or cowls.

As opposed to Texas where you were before?

Yeah. I knit some gloves for myself last year and

they really are better than store-bought gloves. They are

warmer. They're just better!

Okay, so you're enjoying that aspect of it. Does

it matter what you knit? Does that make a difference? Like

does it make a difference what the stitch pattern is or the

colour or...?

I have a tendency to buy the same colour. I find

that I've knit multiple things that look just like the other

thing I knit.

I find I have phases of that. Like at the moment I'd

say I'm in a wine-red phase [laughs] probably influenced by

the season, and then I have other times when I'm like "Oh,

all of my projects are teal! I've just bought more yarn in

that colour!" [Laughs] Does it go in phases like that? Or is it

like overall you tend to knit one colour more than others.

I tend to do purples and greens and then I'll

be like "I am not buying more purple yarn!" I really like

black, but black is so hard to knit with because it's hard to

see. I'm working on a sweater right now that's like a grey

marl, like a... it's not variegated, it's kind of a mixed

black and grey. So I've been trying to expand but this last

year or so I've been trying really hard not to buy yarn

because I have so much. I've bought so much yarn or I've

received yarn as a gift and I'm just so behind in my production

this year. [Laughs] I don't want to buy any more.

And the stitch pattern? Does that make a

difference?

I like to mix it up. I like to do some colourwork

or I like to do some lace. Staci actually last Christmas bought

me a sweater pattern, and the yarn for it, that's got a little

bit of textured stitch pattern, and then it's got some

colourwork in it. So it's kind of like a mixture of both. But

sometimes, I like to just sit and knit stockinette. I really

don't like garter stitch. It doesn't matter, necessarily. I

will probably not take on a super complicated lace pattern

anytime, if I know that I don't have the time to focus on it.

Sure. Do you have different projects for different

occasions? Like if you're sitting waiting for a kid to do

sports or...

Yeah, I usually have a pair of socks that... I

don't really like patterned socks. I like this self-striping

yarn. I've knit a couple pairs of socks that have like the lace

pattern in it and I don't really enjoy that. I like my socks to

be simple. And I even really have gotten to where I only want

to do one kind of heel and toe. So I usually have a simple thing

like a sock that I can just like carry around that's small. Or

just get that done when I don't have focus but I do want to knit

something that I just need to get a row in. And then I'll

usually have something that's got a little more something to

it. More pattern to it. But yeah, I usually have at least

four projects going on, and one may sit for months before I pick

it up again.

You said you gravitate towards the same

colours. I suppose that I have times that I think, "Oh, I want

to knit some bright colour" because I feel like it gives me

a little boost to my mood that day or something. Does it make a

difference when you're working on it? Or are you thinking more

about, "No, I want to WEAR that purple sweater" or whatever it

is.

Yeah, so I have this sweater that I'm working

on. It's like a navy blue base and it has a bright gold and

then magenta colour pattern. And when I'm knitting that I'm like,

"Oh, I love these colours so much." And it does make me want

to work with it a little bit more. And you get excited! Like

I love the self-striping yarns. The colour changes and so it

gets kind of exciting to switch to the other colour.

Yeah. So that keeps your interest going. Is knitting

ever unhelpful for your mental health?

Sometimes, when I feel like I have too many

projects going on and I feel a sense of dread... not dread, but

I feel like it's just another thing on my list. Like right now

I've been trying to make some hats using a little knitting

machine. My friend has a shop here in town and she asked me to

make a few hats. And it was enjoyable, but at the same time

it felt like a chore. I would never want to do it for a job. I

would never try to sell my stuff because I don't enjoy that

feeling of having to get it done.

So were they like shop samples?

No, I just made like six or eight little hats

that you can make on the little crank machine.

Yeah. Or, you know, I made a hat for a friend

Yeah. So then it felt like pressure.

that we went to dinner with the other day and the dog ate it.

[Laughs]

Your dog?

Yeah, right before we left.

Oh no!

He just like grabbed it and pulled on it, and

so it kind of ruined it. When you're making something for

somebody as a gift for a specific day, it was just like

that kind of same feeling.

Yeah, sure. I'm not great with deadline knitting. I

think I couldn't also do it as a job. I think it would reduce the

enjoyment, and it wouldn't be relaxing. Are you gifting a lot

of the things you make, or mainly for yourself?

No. I mean, sometimes I'll knit something

and maybe the socks come out a little too big, and I'll give

them to a friend. Or while I'm knitting this hat that I'm

working on that's taking forever, I'm thinking about

giving it to a friend, just because I have a lot of hats and

I thought she might like a hat. I've knit for my husband, I'll

knit for my kids. My son wants a scarf so I'm going to use my

machine to make him a scarf.

So they're still good recipients of knitted gifts?

Yeah, they recognise the need for it!

Oh yeah, now that you're living somewhere cold!

Okay. I wonder, Casey, if you could tell me about a

significant knitting project.

Significant in what way?

Any way. Some people have spoken about something they

were knitting at a specific time in their life, or it could be

when you mastered some certain skill, or it could be the first

thing you ever made, or a complete disaster. It could be

anything!

Well, I think about this sweater that I made.

I bought this mohair yarn (this is when I was a new knitter),

beautiful mohair yarn, and there was a pattern in interweave

knit. And I didn't really (obviously) understand gauge. So

I had like an extra 12 inches of fabric on my sleeves. It was

this pillowy, lovely thing and I worked so hard on it. It was

huge. And I got everything right but yeah, it was gigantic. So it

really was a lesson to me, how to do that properly.

What became of it? Mohair's also horrendous to rip

back, isn't it?

I know! I gave it to Goodwill, to the charity

shops. So hopefully somebody found it and is loving it.

Yeah. I'm sure they are.

Yeah. But I do think a lot about... I had this

purse that I made that was pretty intricate intarsia, and

then it was felted, and I just really love it. I forget about

it every once in a while and then I'll find it. And I'm like,

"This is gorgeous, a gorgeous design". It's got a big flower

on it. So I just remember that was a complicated piece, and I

stuck with it and made a nice little thing out of it.

And you still have it?

Mm-hmm.

Did you make it a while ago?

Oh, yeah. It's been probably 10+ years.

That's great. I also normally ask about a knitting

high and a knitting low. They could be events; they don't have

to be projects.

A knitting low is when I've worked so hard on

something and then it comes out and it doesn't fit right or

doesn't look the way you wanted it to look. But a high... last

year I finished a sweater that's got this rainbow variegated

yarn, and it's a super basic sweater. It's just a pullover,

but it's like a sweatshirt:

cosy. It makes me happy every

but it's like a sweatshirt:

time I put it on. I purposely knit it knowing that in the dark

but it's like a sweatshirt:

winter days here, I would be like, "I need some happy rainbow

but it's like a sweatshirt:

in my life". [Laughs] So this rainbow sweater... it's cosy and

but it's like a sweatshirt:

every time I put it on, I'm like "I need to make another sweater

but it's like a sweatshirt:

like this because it's so comfortable."

Is it quite a thick yarn?

No it's DK. It's really soft. It fits me

perfectly, and it just fit the bill, you know?

So that's something that makes you feel happy when

you put it on?

Yeah, for sure.

And with the lows, are you someone who will rip

back if it's not looking how you want it to?

Yeah, for sure. And there's been many projects

Put it in the naughty corner!

Yeah, for sure.

that I've ripped back and then just given up on, and put the

But do you feel like that gets any easier over time?

yarn away and can't figure out what to do with it.

Yeah, especially when you're a project knitter

like me, and I was a younger knitter, I hated to rip stuff

back, and I would just deal with the mistake. But now I

recognise, no, you want to have that thing look good and you

want it to look right. It makes such a difference. I'm thinking

about a tank top that I made. The whole back was lace and it

was with a thick yarn so it didn't take forever, but I must

have pulled that thing apart like three or four times. And I

was so frustrated when I was doing it, but I'm glad that I

did because the final product is perfect!

I suppose I feel like I've got more tolerant of

ripping back, the longer I've been knitting. I've accepted now

that that's just part of... like all knitters make mistakes,

that's just how it goes. And sometimes I'll rip stuff back,

especially maybe at the beginning of a project, trying

to get something right. But I often think if I was cast on a

desert island with one ball of yarn, and I didn't need it to

catch fish to eat or something, I would still knit, even if I

had so little I couldn't make a thing. I don't know whether you

would?

Yeah, for sure. I would probably start finding

ways to turn palm tree leaves into yarn or something like

that. [Laughs]

Very resourceful.

Well, I learned how to do basket weaving a

couple months ago, so now I see, "I could make baskets out of

that!" But basket weaving and knitting... there's a lot of

similarities! You have fibre and you're weaving. But finding

fibre in different kinds of plants... yeah, I would totally

do that. [Laughs] Weaving and taking the strings out of

coconuts and turning it into yarn.

I didn't even think about all of these things!

[Laughs] I think I feel like I'm more tolerant of ripping back,

and that maybe I've become more process-focused in other areas

of my life. I don't know what you think... whether there's

been any overspill from knitting?

Yeah. Like I said, I'm a project-based person

anyway, but I've got a lot more patience with myself. And like,

a hat that I'm working on that should not take this long, is

taking me a couple months... it's like, whatever. There's no

deadline. I'll always have something going on. Although my

husband... I'm working on a sweater for him and I have put

it away and have not picked it up again, and he's like,

"Where's my sweater?!"

Okay. But I guess at least he's keen for the end

product, which is also a good thing.

Yeah. It's one of those big oversized cardigans.

The Big Lebowski sweater.

Oh, yeah. I guess that is probably one of the

bigger things to knit, isn't it? An oversized man's sweater?

That's a not insignificant project.

Yeah. And the yarn is just not super

forgiving. So I think I put it away mostly because there's a

pattern to it, and it was getting warmer, and I didn't

want this giant thing in my lap. I just haven't had the time.

Like I said, I haven't really had a lot of time and energy to

knit. My kids have to get to school earlier here than they

used to in Texas, and normally I would stay up late at night and

I just can't do that because I have to get up so early here. So

I'm really tired! It's messing up my circadian rhythms and my

knitting rhythm, staying up when everybody else is in bed.

Do you need an easier project for times like that?

Reading a pattern, if you're tired, it's just too much and

you need something...

Yeah.

Sure. I guess getting back into it is probably a

challenge in itself, finding where you were in the pattern.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay. Casey, I always end with asking what's the

biggest gift knitting has given you for the rest of your life?

That's a good question. I mean, if I'm stuck

on a desert island, I can make clothes.

[Laughs] Yes! You won't be naked; you've made a

bikini before.

That's right! I'm going to pull those coconut

strands and make some yarn. No, I just feel like it's always an

opportunity to make something for someone or, you know, have

that... I kind of feel sorry for people who don't have a hobby

like knitting, and they don't have a thing that they can claim

to be their own; that they'll just spend all their days

watching Netflix or whatever. It just feels like I have this

special talent and special magic, that I can turn something

into something.

Okay. So for you, it's about the magic of the

creative process or the crafting process, that you've got this

special skill that you can make something like that.

Even in times when I'm not knitting a lot, I

will always know how to knit. And I will always be able to

help somebody learn how to knit. I can't imagine not creating

something all the time.

So it sounds like even before you found knitting

you were a person who was making things with your hands or doing

things like crafting, I suppose.

Right. Like I have my little macrame here.

Yeah, they're amazing! So have you got other

hobbies on the go, as well as knitting, like that kind of

thing still? Or do you think knitting has kind of superseded

the others?

Yeah, knitting is the thing because I can pick it

up and put it down, I can travel with it. Like I said, I started

with cross stitch, and I didn't like that I had to get all the

strings out and figure out what colour I was on, and I felt like

it just was... Anything that takes too much setup time, like

sewing to me takes up too much setup time. I like to have

something that I can just stand there, knit a row, get it done,

get a little creative energy out and move on.

I think that's a really common thing, in the

conversations I've had, certainly. When I was talking to

Betsan Corkhill who talks about therapeutic knitting, about why

it's so helpful, it's that it's very accessible. I think a lot

of people return to it after having kids. So having small

children and needing to do something for themselves. I

think that's a common story. And you can just do... you know,

when a baby sleeps you never quite know how long that's going

to be for! [Laughs] You could do one row or you could end up

doing a couple of inches of something or other.

Yeah. And I love it for aeroplane travel and all

those times when you're just sitting and waiting. There's a

lot of times when I've been like, "Oh, I don't have a pair

of socks going and I'm sitting here at the doctor's office.

What am I doing?

I once had to wait some really long waiting times

for some appointments for my eye. I was there for three hours

and everyone else in the waiting room's phone battery had died

hours ago and I'd been doing... I don't love just stockinette,

generally. I quite like... Like with a yoked sweater, I'm super

interested in the colourwork yoke, and then it gets to the

inches and inches of just knitting in the round, and I get

a bit bored really? So for my knitting in the evening,

watching TV, that generally isn't enough to sustain my

attention. But it was great for sitting in a waiting room in a

hospital, because then I felt like I'd achieved three inches

of a sleeve. Whereas everybody else was sitting there by the

end, just watching my hands move. [Laughs]

Yeah, for sure.

And I suppose for me, I think my feeling of the

superpower is slightly different. It's more that I have

this hobby I can whip out at any point that makes me feel calmer

and gives me a sense of purpose. And that's the way I feel the

superpower, rather than turning something into... using sticks

and a ball of string or coconut fibre or whatever you're using

to make something. [Laughs]

Yeah. And it's so much better than scrolling on

your phone, for sure, in a waiting room.

Do you feel like it makes you feel different from

scrolling on your phone?

Oh yeah! Scrolling just makes you more

anxious and more frustrated, or feeling like you need to buy

something or all those different feelings you have. Knitting -

it's a sense of accomplishment. Sometimes it's frustrating, but

it's a totally different feeling.

Mm. I was interested in something you said earlier

about the idea that it gives your mind a chance to think

about other things, or almost like process things while you're

doing it.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like meditation in

some ways, especially if you're on a long stockinette thing, and

you don't really have to think about what you're knitting. Just

to be able to do that. You can be working on other things in

your head.

Yeah. Do you think you're deliberately doing that,

or do you think that's just what happens?

Well, I think that my brain is going all the

time. [Laughs] It just happens that knitting is giving me

something to work on while it's running in the background.

Do you think that's why you find knitting an easier

way to access calm than traditional meditation, because

you are someone with quite a busy brain?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think that's true for me.

Having your hands moving, you can see that sensory

feedback too.

Great. Well, Casey, it's been super interesting to

talk to you. If anyone wants to find out more about your

knitting, or follow you on Instagram, or the podcast, how

would they find out about those things?

My Instagram is @kc.knits - that's where I'm

more active, although lately I've been kind of taking a

little bit of a break. I have a website, www.kcknits.com - it's

the letter K and the letter C, even though that's not how you

spell my name [laughs]. And then our podcast is the VeryPink

Knits podcast. You can get it on any podcast app. And we're on

Patreon. We have extra episodes for our Patreon subscribers

only. And VeryPink Knits is Staci Perry's YouTube channel

for all the tutorials and knitting lessons you need.

The podcast is a Q&A about knitting-related dilemmas.

Thank you for your public service. [Laughs] Okay, great.

Thank you so much, Casey!

Sure! Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit

podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic

knitting, you can follow me on Instagram at

@knittingistherapeutic, or at my website

www.therapeuticknitting.org. If you're enjoying the podcast, I

would really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and a

review on your podcast app. This will help grow the podcast and

let more people know about the therapeutic benefits of

knitting. And don't forget to subscribe too. Thank you!