Knitting for a sense of achievement with Liz O’Riordan

Hello and welcome to the last episode of series two

of the Why I Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a

clinical psychologist who's passionate about knitting and

its benefits for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I

interview a different knitter about why they knit and how it

benefits their mental health. Thank you so much to everybody

who's listened to season two, and especially to the people

who've got in touch by email or on Instagram to let me know

they've enjoyed the podcast, or that knitting has been important

to their mental health, or about projects they've been involved

in to use knitting therapeutically. It's been such

a pleasure to hear from everybody who's got in touch and

to know that other people also believe strongly in the

therapeutic potential of knitting and have been seeing it

in action, either in their own lives or to help other people.

I'm already booking guests and starting to record series three,

which I hope to be releasing in the summer but if you've got a

suggestion of a great guest then please do email me at

mia@therapeuticknitting.org. This week on the podcast I'm

joined by Liz O'Riordan. Liz is a breast surgeon who's also

experienced cancer herself. She is now an author, podcaster,

speaker and also a knitter. Please note that during our

conversation, we do talk about cancer, infertility and

depression, but mostly about knitting.

Hi Liz, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Mia.

So I always start the conversation with asking how you

learnt to knit!

Crikey. So I think I first learnt to knit on

one of those wooden French dollies.

Oh yes.

My dad's mum and my own mum would do a lot of

knitting and I was desperate to fiddle with it, so they got me

one of those. It's like a wooden tube with four spiky nails and

you kind of knit and get this long, long tube and I'd be at

school with my little thing with this growing strand of wool.

What are you going to do with it?

That's what I've always wondered! What do you do

with it? [Laughs]

I love the making but I hate the joining together

and sewing up and cutting off the ends. You're meant to roll

it up into a big long rug in a big circle, but life is just too

short. So I just had rounds of long knitted ribbons. And that

was how I started.

Okay, so you were what kind of age?

I must have been about six or seven, I think.

Yeah. And when did you graduate to needles?

I think that was about 8/9/10-ish with some very

basic needles doing a scarf. My mum knitted amazing things like

Kaffe Fassett patterns but, you know, we'll start simple. And I

just loved the fact that I could produce something, and I would

knit clothes for my Barbie dolls because they were really simple

to do, and then in my teenage years I started knitting cuddly

toys. Some for me and some to give to people as presents. And

some of my friends at school were doing it. It was like the

GCSE revision break and we'd be there knitting kind of Christmas

trees and farmers and we'd get the whole set. And it was just

really nice to produce something positive when you're trying to

cram your head full of stuff.

Yeah! And actually, I've ended up interviewing a few

doctors who (and certainly for me) found that it was a really

good antidote to academic learning along the way!

And, I guess, being physical. Doing something

with my hands rather than just sitting at a book writing. Using

different muscles in the hands as well.

Yeah. And I felt like it uses different muscles in my

brain or uses a different part of my brain. So it kind of

allows the learning to percolate a bit when my hands are busy, I

I'm interested that you had peers who were knitting,

feel.

And the rhythm. Just getting into that rhythm of

knitting. It's kind of calming in a way. You don't need to

because I think a lot of us grew up as the only knitter in the

think; you're just moving the needles and the wool.

classroom.

My mum knitted. She knitted most of her life and

she's given me clothes that she knitted, maternity tops that she

wore when she was pregnant with me.

Oh, wow! That's amazing.

She's always been knitting, sewing, cross stitch,

crochet. We had to move house because there weren't enough

wall space to put all our cross stitches on. It was always a

very crafty kind of... It's autumn, the nights are getting

darker, let's get all the wool and the threads out.

And have you knitted or crafted the whole way

through? Were there ever times where you had significant gaps

where you didn't do any?

I didn't knit during university. I think it

felt... It would almost take too long to do a project and I was

so, so busy as a doctor, but I did do cross stitches. I think I

found that a bit more technically challenging as well

when I needed to concentrate on something else. But as a junior

doctor, I started knitting again. I did a PhD and taught

half the girls there to knit. We were making scarves on really

big size 20 needles. "Look, you can make scarves for all your

friends!" And especially when those fluffy wools came out with

all the bits in the threads. They were special, like, mesh

wools. I got everyone knitting scarves. I've always been very

good at making things that don't fit me. Life is too short to

make a gauge or make a swatch because of course my tension

will be fine! When The Killing came out about 10 years ago,

because we watched it on a flight on my honeymoon, I

thought "I'm going to make the jumper!" I bought the book and I

did The Killing jumper, and it would fit a tiny 12 year old

with no bust. Because the minute I did the colour work, the

tension was really small. I was like, "I can't get this over my

head! My beautiful sweater." So I've had to learn.

it. But I hadn't knitted anything all-over

colourwork, so I was used to having a yoke, which was

probably usually a bit tight, but then a bit of a more

forgiving body. I am knitting myself a new version of it as

kind of a Christmas jumper, and giving that to my nine year old.

[Laughs] I think it will fit her better.

Its so depressing. I need to knit like

practice and prepare and make sure. I think, "No, I

just want to start! I'm too impatient."

Yeah. Because you can save that for operating, can't

you, and break the rules a bit in knitting.

Exactly! Yeah.

Okay, so you had a bit of a break. So you were kind

of a multicrafter really. Do you still do multiple different

I do. I think I get bored. I like to have

crafts?

several projects on the go. I must have five or six cross

stitches that I haven't finished from a while ago. I'm a bad

finisher. And I've got three jumpers that still need sewing

together, which is I what I intend to do.

They're knitted. I tend to do jumpers in the

Are they knitted?

Yeah. Do you think the gardening also occupies that

round that you knit down without the seams. And I started making

my own clothes three or four years ago. I thought, "I have

too many clothes and I buy things I don't like and there's

so much landfill. So I'm going to make things I actually like."

And that's been fun. Again, fabric is free and wool is free.

[Laughs] Good job my husband has no idea just how big my stash

is! I think it's always been a wintry thing. In the summer, I'm

out in the garden. But in autumn/winter, I'll start

getting the needles out and just knitting, and it's something to

do in front of the telly. And I'd miss it if I wasn't doing

something with my hands. And I think when I had to stop

operating because of side effects of breast cancer

treatment, it was that I need to use my hands. Knitting was a

great way of using both of them and just, I guess, calming me

down and getting into that rhythm again.

same space in the summer, in terms of doing something with

your hands? Is it a similar feeling?

I think so. I think it's... I want to feel

useful. And it's producing something. So you plant a seed

and you see it grow. This is a question though. Why do jumpers

weigh more than the balls of wool? Because they do!

[Laughs] Do they? What makes you think they weigh

more than the balls of wool? Do they actually?

I've not done it, but I was just thinking... I've

just knitted a small summer vest and I thought, "I've got the

four or five balls of wool, which feel quite light, and then

the jumper itself just feels heavy." Am I just going mad?

Anyway, I digress.

It's all the effort and the love and the therapy

that you've knitted into it. It must be that, mustnt it?

I think so.

Either that or it's dog hair. [Laughs]

A lot of dog hair.

Yeah. Okay, so you've knitted fairly steadily. It

sounds like you started knitting some quite complicated things

quite early on, because I think toys are quite fiddly and

involve quite a lot of shaping. So you were knitting properly

from patterns even at that stage as a teenager.

Yeah. And that doesn't at all sound like

Yes. And I think it's me... I'm one of those

annoying people who can see something once and pick it up

someone who's a surgeon! [Laughs]

really, really quickly, and I like a challenge. And I don't

want to knit a boring stocking stitch scarf. I want to knit a

scarf with all the bells and whistles. I think my mum had got

a Reader's Digest book of knitting and crafts, and I would

knit swatches of all the different cable patterns and

things. And I think it's that challenge. I want to do

something that's interesting and difficult.

Not at all! [Laughs] When I was having

chemotherapy I started knitting, and I'd seen entrelac knitting.

Oh yeah, that rings a bell but I don't actually know

what it is.

You knit left and right on the needle, and you

kind of knit triangles going one way and then triangles going the

other way, so it all joins together. People knit in

different ways, and I physically move the wool over the needle,

whereas my mother-in-law will just keep it and use the

fingers. I can't do that. I had to learn to do continental

knitting, so rather than turning the work, I could knit left and

then knit right, which did blow my mind. I was high as a kite on

And it all worked? You didn't look back at it and

morphine after my mastectomy, so I knitted an entrelac scarf. In

12 hours. I was wide awake the next morning, a bit high but,

"Look, I've made a scarf!"

think...

No, because again, once I get into the

rhythm of the pattern, you know what you're doing. It's very

simple. It was just learning that technique. And then when it

came back again, I started doing brioche knitting, and instead of

doing brioche knitting with a nice thick, sensible wool, I

thought, "No, I'm going to do it with two mohair strands of wool

knitting this cobweb scarf."

Wow! And how did that go?

There was a bit of swearing and a lot of

unpicking, but it's beautiful. And I've tried to do another

one, but I just don't have the heart to go through the effort

to make it again.

I'm sure the unpicking bit, when that

happens, must be...

Because it's so lacy, you can't...

Well, mohair's tricky anyway. I'm knitting with mohair

at the moment. And in terms of the types of projects you

gravitate towards, is it always the more complicated unchartered

territory you're kind of mountain climbing in your

knitting projects? Or are there times where you think actually,

at the moment, what I need for my mental health or wellbeing is

some really simple something.

It's exactly like that. So I do knit a lot of

scarves and hats and shawls, where I can just sit and watch

TV and knit and not have to think, because they're the

things that I wear most often. So I knitted just a very boring

cream and navy striped Breton jumper, but I've worn it so much

and it was so simple to knit. And then challenging projects

are often gifts for other people. I knitted a load of tiny

little white hearts to give to people at Christmas, and I'll

knit little elephants and things, but they are quite

finicky. And often it's the joy of something that's easy, that

knits up quite quickly, rather than taking months and months

and months.

Yeah. And how much, for you, is it about the process

of the knitting (which it sounds like there is something kind of

soothing for you, the repetitive movements) versus the finishing

a thing and it having a life as an object, like being given to

someone or you wearing it?

It's the making.

It's the making. So more process than product.

Definitely. I knit a load of things because I

want to knit. I don't need another 50 scarves and I don't

need another jumper, but I'm going to knit a jumper. And I've

enjoyed making it, and then I try it on and say, "Yeah, it's

nice, but actually..." Yeah, it's the making. That's really interesting.

So you would do that even if you were on a desert

island and had one ball of yarn?

I think so. I'd still be knitting.

You would unravel it and re-knit it.

So it's funny, as a consultant surgeon operating,

Yeah, I think so.

So would I.

when you've done the magic, the juniors come in and sew up the

scar and make it look pretty and put the dressing on. And I

almost need that for my knitting. "Here you are, here it

is. Can you now sew the ends in and finish the seams and stretch

and block it, please? Because I've done the fun bit!" How do

you get used to loving that bit? I don't know.

I think I've become more tolerant of all of the

fiddly bits of knitting over time, actually. I used to

sometimes leave things with just ends in a knitting basket for

ages! But now I do that less, I think.

I've learnt to do the ends as I go along, which

makes a big difference.

That helps. And I think sometimes I, to be honest,

depending on what I'm knitting, can get a bit of RSI, so I think

sometimes to change the task, it's quite helpful to have some

ends to do. Or you can do it while you're doing multitasking,

perhaps, because you don't have to really use your brain. For

example, if you were following a pattern, you could do it while

you were on a bus or something and it might feel less painful.

I was knitting on a train and there was an old guy

next to me who knitted as well, and we just spent the next hour

talking about his knitting projects. It's amazing how

people come out of the woodwork. And this is the thing... Another

knitter I follow, she's an Australian breast surgeon called

Rhea Liang. She was knitting at a conference, and loads of men

around her said, "You can't pay attention, you're knitting."

"Sorry, I'm paying far more attention than you are on your

phone. I can multitask." Another friend of mine was knitting

things for a craft stall in an MDT meeting, and everyone thinks

she's crazy. But actually, it almost makes you concentrate

more on what you're hearing.

Yeah. Do you find that? I would always, in a

business meeting or that kind of discussion or training, I would

struggle to sit still for six hours and learn about something

without having knitting. And I think the older I've got, the

more confident I've got. And I think also the more awareness

there is that actually humans are not really designed to sit

still for six hours and just listen. And if I have a very

simple basic sock where I'm just knitting in circles, stocking

stitch, that would 100% improve my concentration, like you said,

stop my brain looking for distractions that would be more

distracting, like looking on my phone.

Which is what everyone else is doing, aren't

they?

Yes! And would you do that too?

I would. I never did it at work. I think I'm

always so busy writing in meetings, it was really hard to

do that. But especially on Zoom calls and things, I'll often

have the knitting there. And it's just a way of focusing.

Yeah. So you would use it for that reason as well.

In terms of what you think knitting brings your life, in

terms of your wellbeing generally, how do you think it

helps?

That's a really interesting question. I've never

thought about what it brings, because it's just part of me. I

think it's being able to make something and be proud of it and

feel I've accomplished something. Because now I've

retired, I don't do anything and it's quite nice just to see I've

made something. But it calms me down. I guess it's the

mindfulness. Kind of the buzzword. It's just a way of

relaxing and switching off. But it's that challenging. It's

getting my brain, "Let's just tackle something really big" and

keeping me thinking. And I like that. I like learning new

things. What can I do next? What's different? And god, it's

amazing how you can just get lost scrolling down knitting

patterns. It's another way of getting bored and kind of

doom-scrolling, but knitting patterns and knitting bloggers.

But I love that whole... It's a really safe, friendly world.

Knitters are great people. It's like a whole other community of

friends that I didn't know existed, now,it's kind of opened

up online, if that makes sense.

Yeah, definitely. I don't know whether that's part

of the process that you enjoy, like the planning of the project

and the picking of the colours, or whether it's more the actual

action, or both.

I am technical but I don't think I'm creative.

I find it very hard to imagine a jumper in another colour,

because I see what's on the pattern. I find it very, very

hard. If you asked me to draw something, I'd say, "Give me

something to copy." But I couldn't draw from my brain. So

it's often me looking at a pattern with a colour. I like

that I need it. And then once I've knitted it, I may think,

"Oh, I can change that because it'll look better." But for me,

it's the doing. It's the getting stuck in and using my hands and

telling my husband to stop talking to me when I'm casting

on.

[Laughs] When you're counting stitches.

Yeah, that's frustrating.

He knows! "When I'm counting, don't come near

me!" And he'll start shouting out numbers. "No! This is the

fifth time!" And it's always when it's like 300 stitches. "Go

He doesn't understand it. It's really funny

away!"

because he's a surgeon. I'm trying to show him, "Look, you

could knit. It's just knots. It's just knots and needles."

"No, I don't understand."

I was interested that you said you've started making

your own clothes. Is that over and above knitting, or sewing?

As well. I think, again, knitting is more a winter

thing. I don't really like knitted summer jumpers and it

feels weird knitting a big heavy jumper or scarf in the summer

because I'm not going to wear it then. And I like just knitting a

load of simple jersey tops that fit me. Just a really nice

jersey. And I like, again, that process with the sewing machine,

of the knitting and the planning and the making. Although it's

hard because I live in Suffolk. Where I live, there aren't many

fabric shops so you buy fabric online. Same with wool, really:

you order it online and think, "Oh wait, this is soft." Or,

"It's scratchy, it's not what I thought it would be." It's a

couple of hours of me-time as well. It's guilt-free, selfish,

this is just me in my room with my machine and my needles, just

doing something for me.

Yeah. And how does it affect your wellbeing once

you're wearing the finished product?

Yeah, it's a really nice feeling and when

someone says, "Oh, I like your top!" you think, "I made it."

It's a bit of "Hey, look at me, I'm amazing!" but it's really

nice to think I've got something that nobody else has that fits

me perfectly. Like a jumper, when you know you can add three

inches onto the sleeves because they're never long enough. I

love that you can customise the clothes to make them fit you.

Because I feel like that was something that

surprised me when I started knitting garments, because for a

long time, I wasn't really knitting... it might have been

shawls or scarves or hats, but it wasn't really like... you

know, now I wear things I've made every day. And like you

said, I had then a barren point in the summer where I thought,

"I'm not wearing anything I've made!" and then turned to

sewing. But I feel like it's had a very transformative

relationship in my... is it body image or I suppose my

relationship to clothing, for sure. But also, if someone gives

me a compliment, it's not so much about how I look. I can

transform it into a compliment that means something more to me.

It's like, "Look, you're clever!" or "You're creative!"

because I made it myself.

Yes, exactly. And they're like, "Wow, you made

that? I could never do that." And you think, "Oh, actually,

it's not just knitting! This is actually something that is quite

impressive for a lot of people." But then you want them to know

how simple it is. But I think I am more aware of what my body is

like, now I'm having to fit it and accept that this is my

shape, learn what works for me and what doesn't. And actually

appreciate jumpers and scarves and clothes in shops, and

realise what's gone in, and is this made well? And I'll look at

the seams and think, "Actually, this isn't. I could do better

And is it easier... you know you said about that

than this."

kind of coming to terms with how your body is now? Has that been

more challenging if you're making it yourself? Or is that

easier than if you were buying in a shop, where you might have

an idea about what size or what shape? You know, can you

customise it more, and does that feel better, or not

particularly?

I think the problem for me is that I don't

have a left breast, and I don't wear a prosthetic or a bra

because of pain, so I am lopsided. My other side isn't

particularly big, but it is very noticeable. And especially in a

big jumper, when you've got one breast sticking out. And it's

kind of patterns or things to distract it. Or when you're

sewing clothes, it's how you have to tweak the neckline so it

doesn't gape, or I can't wear that. And that was really

challenging, seeing beautiful patterns and making them up

thinking, "No, this doesn't work. And I don't know how to

change it for my shape." And it's kind of working out pattern

placement on jumpers so it's not very obvious where I don't want

it to be seen. I think that's been really challenging. And

learning how to measure yourself properly. And actually

forgetting that small could be a large in a different size, and

that's just how it's made, and it's just a number. Rather than

being, "Oh, I'm always a size 10" or "I'm always a size..."

Well, it depends which shop you're in. And that's the same

with dressmaking patterns, especially the Vogue ones from

12 now, and you just have to forget all of that.

Yes. But I think you're right. I haven't got to

the level of adapting patterns for sewing. That's quite

challenging, I think.

Yeah, a lot of YouTube videos. And it takes

time, because you have to trace out the pattern, then put it

onto paper, and then cut it, and then get out the muslin, then

make a thing, and does it fit, and then do it again. Whereas

you just want to go straight to the cutting. Like making a

swatch in knitting. You know you should. [Laughs]

But you just don't. [Laughs]

But you don't. And actually I've learned to do

that now. It's not worth spending all that time on this

beautiful wool, if I'm not going to do a swatch and make sure it

fits me. So I have finally learnt that.

I'd like to say I have, but there are certain... I

Oh no! [Laughs]

have just recently made a hat that I now need to find someone

with a very big head who'd like to appreciate it! [Laughs]

Would you say knitting is your main craft now,

or do you still do... are you crocheting as well?

I've done a bit of crocheting. I made a yellow

elephant to go with my podcast, and I was going to make them for

all the guests. But I find crochet really painful on my

hands because I don't do it very... and when you flip

between the two, it's almost like getting your hand muscles

going again. I think it's knitting in the winter and

sewing in the summer. But I will always knit. I just love that

feel of the needles and seeing something grow and the challenge

of reading a pattern. And I think I'm really glad I did it

at a such young age. It's always been part of my life, and it's

something I can hopefully pass on to my own grandchildren.

Do you think you used it for its mental health

benefits when you were younger?

Definitely.

Because I think I probably did, but I don't think

I actually realised I was doing it at the time. I think it

actually was very late to dawn on me how I was actually using

it. But I definitely really was.

I've never thought of that, but I think

you're right. So I've had serious depression twice in my

life, and knitting was something I did. I may just be in the

house with my cats or my dog, but I would knit and I could

make something and it kind of made me feel that I'm still...

useful is the wrong word, but I think it is... It's a really

good way of helping your mental health and just centring you

again, and helping you... Sometimes it's good thinking

time, and that can be bad because you're alone with your

needles thinking, "Oh my goodness..." I just tend to have

Friends repeats on so I don't need to concentrate. Just

background noise, because it can be really... Finding the right

thing to do as well. But yeah, I think it's been really important

for my own peace of mind and sanity throughout all of my

life. And I can almost look at a jumper and say, "Oh, I did that

when I was feeling that. And I made that scarf when I was

feeling that."

And how does it feel to have those kind of reminders

in physical form?

It's weird. In some ways it's a bit sad, being

reminded of how you felt at that time. But then you look at the

scarf and think, "No, that came out of that. There are positives

to come out of it." And I think that it's really nice to see the

good when you are in the middle of something difficult.

Because I think it can be a complicated

relationship, can't it? I've spoken to quite a few people

who've used knitting during periods of grief, for example.

And then you could have very mixed associations with that

item.

So when I found out I couldn't have children

because chemo made me infertile, I suddenly started grieving for

the loss of the baby I now knew I really wanted and could never

have. My brother had had a son and I'd knitted all the baby

clothes, and I couldn't wait to knit them for my own baby,

because they're so cute. And I couldn't. And so what I then did

was start knitting clothes for premature babies. And you can

almost knit... this sounds really awful... either knit

clothes for them when they're very, very small, or clothes to

be buried in. And they give you the size for a baby hat that

fits on an egg. And they were teeny teeny tiny, and I was

knitting all of them and I just thought, "No, this is not good

for me. It was a nice idea, but doing it is just bringing it

back home." So I had to stop. And I think it's okay to stop a

project. I can't not finish a book if I don't like it. And if

I'm knitting a jumper and I'm just not enjoying it, I have to

it's okay to stop.

Yeah. I allow myself to stop with a book too.

I've never thought of that: why do you

[Laughs] If I don't care if the characters live or die, I think,

"Well, I don't need to find out." When I do my therapeutic

knitting groups, like in schools, I talk a lot about how

it's really important for you to think about what you need the

project to give you right now. And if it's not giving you that,

it's not the right thing for right now. And it might not be

knit? I thought I just knit because it's what I do. But

the wrong thing forever. You know, maybe that jumper needs to

go and sit and hibernate somewhere. But if what you need

for your life is a sense of achievement, maybe you need

something a lot smaller that you're going to finish, and get

the sense of achievement, and then tackle that jumper another

time, or unravel it.

again, is it distraction or is it comfort? Or is it the

challenge?

I think it's probably helpful for our mental health

because it's all of those things, or it can be all of

those things at different points. And sometimes it could

be something soothing and simple and repetitive that's literally

just your hands, where your brain is doing a Zoom training

or doing something else, or where you're completely wiped

and you don't have any bandwidth left for thinking. And sometimes

you think, "Actually, I need an escape from the news, or

everything, and I need to absorb myself completely in a really

complicated pattern so I just can't think about anything

else." It can be all of those things, can't it?

Yeah, you pick the right project for what you

need at the time.

And does, for example, the materials make a

difference, or the colour? Does that make any difference?

I'm always drawn to yellows and blues. And I love

kind of the Norwegian... like the intarsia kind of colourwork

that they do. I love that. But often the patterns recommend

really itchy wools. I've made that mistake before: you buy the

wool that comes with a pattern and you think, "No, I don't like

this." I don't like bright colours. Kind of soft, pale,

pastelly neutrals. And I always want the perfect black jumper

but I hate knitting with black, because it's so hard to see what

you're doing. I think it's an interesting design, either

interesting colourwork or an interesting stripe, that catches

my eye, rather than the colours.

And is it more about the process for you? Like the

design? Or is it more about, "Oh, I like the look of that. I

want to make it"? Or is it more about, "I want to be doing that

thing with my hands" like cables or colourwork?

I think it's "I like the look of that pattern.

It looks interesting." That's what I'm drawn to. And sometimes

I'm looking for a really cabley Aran network jumper for my

husband, or sometimes I just want something light. Something

will just catch my eye because I've always got projects on the

go. I can always knit another scarf. I think, "Ooh, that just

really excites me, what I want to knit next." And it could be

anything. God, it's so haphazard, isn't it? How do you

plan what to knit next?

I think I think much more about process than about

the end result. I wouldn't knit something I didn't want, but,

for example, I have a jumper that is a very, very plain

raglan stockinette jumper with three large stripes, basically,

of colour. I love it. It's slightly the worse for wear

having had an interaction with some moths. I don't think I

could re-knit that for myself. It wouldn't be enough going on.

I like to have a plain project on the go that I don't need to

think about, for example, doing a Zoom training. So plain socks,

for example, are quite good because I can carry them around.

And in the summer, you know, if you happen to end up sitting in

the park or you're waiting for a bus or something, they're quite

good because they're easy and you can stick them in your bag.

But I didn't think I would do a whole jumper like that. I'd be

more attracted... Like this one has got some kind of detail,

like stitch patterns. And I think I would nowadays gravitate

more towards something a bit complicated or colourwork.

I think you get to a certain stage when you're

bored just knitting stocking stitch.

I definitely plan my projects so that I have

different... I like something very challenging, because

sometimes I do just want to turn off the rest of the stuff going

on in my brain and just be absorbed in it. And then

something for stopping me getting distracted if I'm

listening. So I definitely would plan them like that. And I think

sometimes I do... Like with this project I've got on the go right

now that's got mohair, I did really have a hankering for the

tactile sensation of mohair, I think.

It is lovely and soft, isn't it?

Yeah. I'd love to hear about a significant

knitting project for you, Liz.

I think it was probably the first blanket I

made, done by knitting squares in all sorts of different

colours. And I did that during my A-levels. I look at it and it

was a great time of my life, and so many memories were kind of

caught up in it. I knitted these huge squares, and then I would

crochet an edge around them, and I thought, "Wow, this is

amazing! I have made this blanket." It's actually a proper

thing that I used and I wore. And I then gave it on. So our

local hospital had volunteers who knit blankets for people who

were dying. So they have colourful blankets on the

hospital beds, and nurses know the blanket means that they're

towards the end of their life. And I donated it to them. And

that to me was a lovely way of giving something that didn't fit

in with my life now on to someone else. And I think the

things that mean the most to me are things I've given to people,

like really complicated scarves. They're not expected to say

thank you. It's that act of love of giving it to someone else

that really means a lot to me. I often put more effort into those

than I do for things I'm making myself.

Yeah, so there's a big part of knitting that is

about the feeling you get when you give something away to

someone else.

Yes, completely.

Do you generally know beforehand? So if you're

knitting a scarf like you said, a complicated scarf, would you

generally know who's going to receive that, or not

Generally. So a scarf I knitted recently and

necessarily?

gave to someone, I thought it would be for someone and then

life happened to someone else. And by the time I'd finished it,

life had happened to someone else, so actually no, they need

it most. And often I'm just bored. I think, "I want to knit

a beautiful intricate lacy scarf, and I don't need one so

I'll find someone to give it to when it's done. Because I don't

need another jumper at the moment." Again, you can knit so

many things and actually you don't wear them because you have

so many and it's really hard thinking, "Right. What do I

actually want to wear that will go with my wardrobe?" instead of

"Ooh, that's a pretty colour!"

Do the recipients always appreciate? Does it

matter to you whether they know what's gone into it or whether

they're not going to chuck it in the washing machine?

It always matters to me, but they're to close

family and friends who know what it's like and how much hours

went into it, so they do understand. So I had a group of

friends who kind of knit and crochet on Twitter, and one of

the first cardigans a friend made looked a bit female

gynaecological. So we called it a fanny cardigan. And then we

thought we would set up a shop called Tits, Knits and Hookers,

because I was a breast surgeon with knitting and their crochet

hooks. So we'd sell cake and knit, and that was like, "Right,

we will do this. So we all retire and we will just sit and

knit and crochet and chat all day long, and life would be

wonderful."

Are they friends you've met online or people you

Yes, friends I've met online. It all started... So

know in real life?

I'd just been diagnosed with breast cancer, and I was on the

train to London with my husband and we were starting to talk

about Christmas knitting patterns. And I managed to

find... something led to willy-warmers because I was

talking about my time as a urology surgeon, and you could

find patterns for men's boxer shorts which had a willy-warmer

attached. So we were laughing on the train. And that then led us

to finding a pattern for a knitted condom! Which obviously

wouldn't work. Which I then made and put Lindt chocolate balls on

and it goes on my tree every year. And since then we've just

gone looking for crazy knitted things that you'd never ever

make.

So it sounds like that kind of humorous side... So

that was how you met this group of friends?

Yes. And I've met some of them in person, and it's

just lovely. But we have our own little group and we'll share

what we're making and have a laugh, and "Oh my god, this

looks like this... it didn't look like that on the pattern."

It's nice to have that, and just share the mistakes and the pain

[Laughs] Yeah, so craft has brought a new

when your husband makes you lose count.

Yeah, definitely more friends. Yes. So again, the

connection.

Australian surgeon who knits as well - there's like so many

people who just get in touch because you're doing it, and

it's lovely. And other people have been inspired to learn how

to knit by watching a YouTube video because they've seen me

post something. And I love that you can inspire other people to

get on board with a habit.

chat on a train journey.

Exactly. And probably get no knitting done at

all, because you're too busy talking. But I love that. And

it's not expensive. You can get wool in a charity shop and a

couple of needles and actually make something.

So it sounds like it brings quite a lot of joy to

your life.

It does. But for me, it's about using my hands in

a complex way. It is my kind of, "I'm not operating, but this is

how I do it now".

Yeah. And seeking the challenge, as well, of a new

type of thing.

Yes, definitely. I think, "What can I do next?

I've done entrelac, I've done brioche, I've done intarsia.

There must be something else I can do."

Sure. And I can really hear that it's important

to you to get that sense of achievement, and to feel like

it's a useful thing that goes out into the world and has a

life afterwards.

Yeah. I don't get patients flashing me in

Sainsbury's showing me their scars anymore saying, "Thank

you, Doctor, you can't see it." It's that kind of, I guess, a

sense of self-gratification.

Yeah. And also because I guess as a surgeon,

you're someone who's a high achiever, good with your hands,

attracted to a challenge, but also really interested in

helping people. And it sounds like in a way knitting can allow

you to tick all of those boxes.

Yeah. And it's lovely. I think it's so nice

when you get something homemade.

From other people?

Yeah, you know, they've kind of really taken the

effort and thought about you. And I think it's really nice

giving someone that gift. Because a scarf fits everybody.

[Laughs]

Yes, this is true! I always end with asking about

what the greatest gift is that knitting has given you for the

rest of your life.

I think it's a sense of achievement, that it

doesn't matter where I am or how bad I'm feeling, I can get the

needles out and I can make something and say, "That wasn't

a wasted day."

So it's a way of having a kind of soothing

activity, but also having achieved something.

I think so. Yeah, it's something I can always do

that will just make me feel, "Yeah, you can still do

something. You're okay."

Have you found when you were feeling low, you could

still knit?

Yes. And rather than spending hours

doom-scrolling on my phone, I'll just turn it off or put some

music on and I will just knit and it's just that thinking

time. A lot of thinking time, I've got the dog on my lap but

he's got caught up in the ball of wool, but it's just that kind

of... I just feel safe. And there's something lovely about

the feeling of that heavy blanket growing on your lap.

Just that feeling of just me and my wool and I'm fine. Sorry,

husband! [Laughs]

We'll edit that bit. [Laughs]

We'll edit that bit! No, he knows. He knows.

So that's amazing. So it's really the sense of

achievement and a feeling of peace and comfort that you get

while you're doing it.

Yeah, definitely. What about you?

I think, yeah, all of those things. I think it's

really difficult to tie it down to what the... I do feel like

it's a way of accessing comfort, in a way. I feel like it is a

bit of a superpower that I have, like this secret skill that if I

go into a situation that's potentially stressful, it will

calm me down. And many people I've interviewed, and I

certainly would count myself as someone who's not particularly

good at classic mindfulness or meditating, but it is a way that

I feel like physiologically, it probably reduces my blood

pressure and my stress. I also think I'm not great at

concentrating and just sitting and listening to training or

something. It's different in therapy, obviously, because I'm

more in a dialogue, and I'm engaging. But just sitting and

listening, I'm not great at, and knitting really helps me with

focus. But I think it's also, in terms of my body image, I feel

like I really like the self-expression and the

creativity, that I like it being a wearable art, in a way, or a

wearable expression of who I am. And I feel like I've kind of

opted out of standard fashion, because I'm more interested in

the process of making and then I love it and want to wear it.

Yes. And it's nice wearing something you've

made that no-one else can have, and being a bit different,

because the shops are just full of the same colours and you

think, "No, I'm going to do orange and purple and red

And I think I've definitely got a different

together!"

relationship with colour. When I made this yellow, I used to

think I wasn't someone who would wear yellow but it makes me feel

happy every time I put it on! So of course I should wear yellow!

I'm all about the yellow! Says she wearing black.

[Laughs]

Yeah, so I do think it's brought so much. And I love

introducing new people to knitting, and I'm really

enjoying working with teenagers and giving them that skill. Like

you said, you've had it for such a long time and it's benefited

your life. Maybe you didn't realise it always, you know,

throughout your A-levels.

I don't think I did.

I certainly had revision breaks in my doctorate

where I would knit, and it would allow ideas to percolate if I

was writing an essay. And I think that has really been

invaluable and I'm really more putting psychological labels on

the ways in which it's been helpful to me, but it's been

there doing it all along. [Laughs]

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It's just

that... Everyone should knit.

They should! And maybe if it's not knitting for

everybody, you know, there might be other ways they could have a

creative outlet that's something you do with your hands,

something that you literally create. Like you said about

gardening, I think some people might find that more their

medium, but I think a lot of the ways it would help them would be

very similar.

Definitely.

Liz, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear your

stories about knitting and how it's benefited you, and I'm so

glad that it has brought you through some darker times and is

continuing to bring joy to you and all the people who are lucky

enough to receive your gifts.

Thank you, Mia. It's been great to chat.

If people want to find out more about you on

social media, see what your knitting, where would they do

that?

So on Instagram, I'm @oriordanliz. On Twitter,

I'm @Liz_ORiordan. Feel free to drop me a line and I will reply

to anybody about anything.

Super. And I always encourage showing and telling of

knitting, so I'd also love to see all your knitting!

I'm now going to stalk your profile and see,

"Right, what's the next jumper I'm going to make?"

[Laughs] Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank

you!

Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit

Thanks, Mia.

podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic

knitting, you can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic

or at my website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If

you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if

you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This

will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the

therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to